Episode 101: "The One With The Nose Guy" with Special Guest Cameron Ford"

Speaker 1: 0:00

The industry is sick and I was like I'll be the one to say, hey, we're better together.

Speaker 2: 0:04

For sure.

Speaker 1: 0:05

You know and like what are some things? There's a lot of folks out there that are struggling right now and you know, I feel very fortunate that you know. Knock on wood, you know, we're not and we're staying busy and we've got a large team we continue to recruit. I'm not saying we're doing everything right out there to help you know, and it's like if I can help you do better, that's going to benefit more families, more dogs. If there's things that you can do to help me do better, well that's going to benefit more families, more dogs. And a'm not surprised by the lack of openness that we've run into what's going on everybody. Welcome back to the Big Dog Podcast. Really excited for today's show because I think you're going to learn a lot and you're going to laugh a good amount as well.

Speaker 1: 1:11

We got Cameron Ford of Ford Canine in his studio across the country. We couldn't be further apart today. California and Virginia. Cameron and I met a couple of years ago in Vegas when he was based out of there. He came out, was kind enough to speak and share some wisdom and knowledge with myself and some of the other owners with Off-Leash Canine Training when we were having our owners conference there a couple of years ago and since that time I've had several teammates go out and attend different seminars and programs that Cameron's done, and the one constant that I've always heard over the years is wow and holy shit when it comes to stuff that they got to experience working with Cameron and his teams. And for a while now I've been like man. I really should reach out to Cameron about coming on the show, because I think it would just be a great, fit and fun conversation to have, and we finally connected and were able to make it happen, and so welcome to the Big Dog Podcast, cameron.

Speaker 1: 2:04

I really appreciate you coming out. Thank you very much. I'm able to make it happen, and so welcome to the Big Dog Podcast, cameron. I really appreciate you coming out. Thank you very much. I'm glad to do it. That's awesome. Now, cameron, you have a podcast yourself and it's Canine Talking Sense. Talk to me a little bit about that. When did you kick that off and what has been kind of the lessons learned with that?

Speaker 2: 2:27

Yeah, so that started. We're in our sixth year right now and on episode I'll be airing episode 102 coming up. And yeah, that podcast was kind of started because I would be having some of these amazing conversations with some of the scientists and really good trainers within the detection dog community and I thought to myself you know, podcasts were just kind of starting to catch you know momentum back then. So I was like, you know, it'd be really good to kind of share some of these conversations I was having with everybody else. So that was the brainchild for the podcast. And then it just became a thing and what I started doing was and I it was.

Speaker 2: 3:00

I look back now and I cringe at you know, what I used to use and how the audio was back then. The first I don't know 10 episodes it's all over the place as far as audio quality and things like that. Like episode one was like horrible. But over those years you know it was interviewing researchers, interviewing influential trainers, people of various techniques, because the whole goal at the end was like what you guys do is, which is just share lots of different points of view, lots of different information, and in my world it's, you know, the detection side of things. So that's where it came to, and now it's turned into, like you see, the studio and we do most of the interviews in person now, and it's turned into a YouTube show. So it's like it's like anything off in one way and then all of a sudden now it's a whole different production. But the big goal that I want to accomplish is share that knowledge and information to a wide variety of people through that kind of platform.

Speaker 1: 3:58

Yeah, it's really amazing. It's funny. It started out with a dog, a leash, a crate, yep, exactly, and we started from that. Now it started out with a dog, a leash a crate Yep, exactly yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:06

And we started from that.

Speaker 1: 4:07

now it started out with a microphone and a laptop, and we were joking before the show, talking about equipment changes and stuff, and you know, I was really finicky when we launched a couple of years ago. I was like man, it needed to sound right, it needed to look a certain way. Like I couldn't. And everyone told me like josh, just put content out, just put the content out, that's what matters, just start. And, man, I wish I would have really listened to that, because we would be much further along now had we had we done that, but I needed a stubborn shocker, and I wanted to look, sound and feel a certain way, and now that we're you know, we're coming up on our 100th episode, and i'm'm like man. Our equipment has gotten so much better.

Speaker 1: 4:45

We've changed things so much, though, and I'm so less worried about how it looks and feels.

Speaker 1: 4:50

I'm so much more excited about the content that we're actually putting out, and then the fact that it does sound good and look good, because we're doing YouTube also and all those things. But I agree, it's like man to be able to get content out to people, to where they can learn, where they can share it, expose them to a different way of thinking, maybe a different process and, really selfishly, the stuff I've learned from having people on the show, I mean it's just, it's been tremendous. And when I started the training side I would never thought I would do a podcast or anything like that. That was the furthest thing from my mind. But it's crazy how I know you hear it a lot with your show. Man, that show was great. That really helped me with this. I couldn't believe you know what they were talking about. That changed my whole mindset as I approached working with my dog on some detection things and you're like, oh crap, people listen and there's there's help and there's guidance that they get.

Speaker 2: 5:38

Yeah, it's exactly what you said. It became, you know, obviously, when I started. You know, obviously when I started, you know podcasts didn't even exist. It wasn't a thing. And you know there's a joke I make now where, you know, back when I started doing in the nineties it was, you know, you get a business card and a telephone number and that's what you had. And then a few years later, we get in the early two thousands. It was a website. You had a website and an email address and that was on your business card, so that you were an established business dog trainer because you had an email address and you had a website. That's right. And then fast forward to about 2007,. 2008-ish. All of a sudden, social media starts creeping in and then fast forward a few more years. Well then you had to have your social media site, your website, your email. Fast forward to now. If you're a dog trainer and you don't have a podcast, how can anybody take you seriously?

Speaker 2: 6:31

right yeah, what do you mean? You're training dogs? No, you don't. I've never seen a podcast. You can't be training dogs. How is this possible?

Speaker 1: 6:37

so you're not on spotify. You don't train dogs?

Speaker 2: 6:39

yeah, exactly so it's just the evolution of, yeah, um, the means of communication and it's another source, that's a open source, free source of information that, uh, is available for everybody and and and just like what's you know. The next evolution, like we just talked about too, was how the podcast is audio and format when it was first out there, and it's still primarily that. But for a significant portion of podcasters, especially the early adopters like ourselves, it now has turned into a YouTube show. You know so because people kind of craved, especially when you talk to certain specific information, they wanted to also be able to have a way to visualize that, and that happens now through YouTube and other video formats. So I already expect, you know, give it another year or two and you can't be a dog train unless you got your YouTube show of your podcast with all this stuff.

Speaker 2: 7:43

So in the technology, as we were both talking about before on the air or before we got on the air, was how the equipment is more obtainable, easier to use. And now the next thing and I know you guys probably play with it too the ai aspect of editing and some of the other things that used to take me out like I would do a recording of an hour of a podcast, but it would take me four hours of editing to get it where I want. Now I hit one button with AI is done in 10 minutes. Yeah, that's freaking crazy. I mean it's. So as this gets simpler, you know, like anything else, the joke we're making will become reality. Dog trainers will have their own show in in conjunction with being a dog trainer, and that's how you'll reach your audience and share how you're the best and your technique is the most influential and so forth.

Speaker 1: 8:36

So until it becomes something different in 10 years exactly.

Speaker 2: 8:39

Then we're, then we're the really old guys. You're like back in my day. You know it's four and five, four, four, seven years ago I had just a video camera.

Speaker 1: 8:51

Yeah, man, I think about all the crap and tools I've used over the years, like from a because decision, because we already had a pretty large subscriber base on YouTube you know, 12, 15,000 videos of training and so we had a platform there, cause we've always used it. But, man, you're talking about the equipment. I just laugh. Like we had, like the Osmos, I had the DJI, the mini, you know, we had the gimbals for the phone to hold the phone. We got, we lost our mind and had the DSLR guys following us around Like we're, you know, in Hollywood. I mean, we, it's been all that. Now the thing that's really funny is this dang phone though. Oh, it's crazy Is is, unless you are just diehard passionate about the videography and the photography side, these phones, you know, can capture the quality-wise, editing-wise out of the phone. It's pretty remarkable. So, cameron, you know 30-plus years in the dog world working with dogs all over the country, all over the world. Really, what started this off?

Speaker 2: 10:07

you know what's that dog moment where you're like, yeah, this is what I'm gonna do so for me growing up, my neighbor was the guy who started, uh, basically police dogs in mainly the central florida area, but it was between him and a guy in south florida that were the kind of first to get police dogs going. So this is in the late 60s, early 70s. The guy who I grew up next to is a guy named bob gailey, not to be confused with bob bailey. For those that knew who bob bailey is, bob gailey, um, was a us army handler. He as his cause when he was in, all they had was sentry dogs. So his last couple of years in service he was stationed at Washington DC and his his job was to walk with his dog and guard the different monuments and locations around the DC area. And at that time a gentleman named Pat Cahill comes over from the UK and he was the first to start teaching what is now the modern police dog, not the sentry dog that couldn't be handled by anybody. It was a police dog that was still, in today's standards, a tough, strong dog, but could be handled by. You know, it wasn't just one person, only kind of concept, sure. And now there's actually an award on the USPCA side of things called the Pat Cahill Award, which is where it comes from. So, anyhow, my mentor, bob Gailey, went and was one of the first, you know, us citizens to go through Pat Cahill's class back in those days. So he goes through that, gets out of there, starts his own business called Canine, incorporated down in Florida.

Speaker 2: 11:46

That's who I grew up next to and I was the little kid that he would use to put next to his big Rottweilers and Dobermans and German Shepherds back when there were station wagons and I'd be in the back of the station wagon with all the dogs and go to demos and stuff like that. And the crazy part was I was scared to death of the dogs, really young, and then something switched and it became the thing that I loved. So you know, fast forward some years, he ended up moving away. You know, I did the normal life of going through school, high school etc. And then I was taking my first class in college and I decided for whatever reason was, I was taking night classes. So in these night classes I had a bunch of cops and started talking to a few of them and just they were like oh yeah, do a ride along with us. I was like Sure, okay, so go to the sheriff's office, fill out a form and then, as I'm driving away from the sheriff's office, I look over and I see the canine guys training in this field. So I just kind of pull over and I'm watching. So of course you know now, being a cop years later, I know what they did. They see this kid sitting there and they're like what the hell's going on. So the guy comes out to me like can I help you? And I was like, oh, I'm just watching.

Speaker 2: 12:52

You know, a friend of mine, my neighbor, used to do this. His name is Bob Gailey and he was like oh well, bob's's over here. So the guy yells hey, bob, some kid named Cameron sitting over here. And then he yells what? So I go walking over and then from that day forward the next day I was at his facility cleaning kennels. I mean, I cleaned kennels and did all the normal grunt work stuff for about a year. But every night by 4 pm the canine guys would start showing up to his facility. By 4 pm the canine guys would start showing up to his facility and they they would train from 4 pm to about 4 am. Monday through friday. Oh wow, I would work all day long and then hang out until about 4 am, sleep a few hours, come back in, do kennel stuff. And I did that for an entire year. I sat at the police class and I just sat out there by their little bonfire they'd have set up and watch what they do.

Speaker 2: 13:46

And finally, on year two, the guy who was a police officer, who was kind of like Bob's right-hand guy when it came to training, especially police classes, guy named Mike Ansley. Mike comes over to me and throws a sleeve down at my feet and says, hey, your turn, you're going to start decoying now. So I was like, well, what do I do? He goes, you're going to start decoying now. So I was like, well, what do I do? He goes. Just, you've been watching, imitate what you saw us do. Right, that's exactly what I did and I kind of imitated and they would give me tips and make me better, and sure, yeah, but after that for the next year all I did was decoy, lay tracks, hide in buildings, hide in cabins and schools, and all of that vicariously taught me a lot of little nuances.

Speaker 2: 14:24

That when I later the next year became a handler. So this is that was like in 1994. So 1995 I became a handler. But in 1994, by being the decoy track layer, I ended up learning so much about how dogs searched, because I was what they were looking for. A lot of right, yeah. So and I I could hear when a handler would walk by and miss where I was at. But the dog would you know, these were obviously in school, these were class dogs, so they weren't, you know, out in the road yet. So the dogs would sniff, know I was there, but then follow their handler and leave and then eventually come back and find me. But it taught me little things. So then, when I did become the handler, if I heard my dog do certain things, I'm like, oh, okay, I know what's going on. Now there's somebody or something over here. So therefore I should pay attention to this. And that's kind of how it went.

Speaker 2: 15:12

And then that after that first year in 1995, I was only 21, 22 years old I kind of had a choice. They were telling me I wanted to be a cop and they were like you're on the younger side, yeah, you could probably get hired. But they all kept saying the same thing, which was go in the military, go in the military, go in the military. And I had, you know, my grandfather and uncles and stuff that had done stuff. And that was at that time I was also, even though it sounded like I knew what I was doing I was a wayward, you know, 20 something year old that wasn't sure what to do, sure Not really settled in life. So the family kind of just said, well, you need to get your shit together and when you decide what that is, you know, then you can come back home and live at home until you decide what to do. So you know, I would live in. You know, I had an apartment for a little while, live with a friend. And then then so I was like, okay, this, this kind of living was, I had this moment.

Speaker 2: 16:04

Basically, what happened was I was working also at a vet clinic in my part time and I started dating this one girl who, back then, what had a fiance, but for whatever reason, she was hitting on me and I was like this is awesome. So, long story short was, we started, we dated for a few months. She realized living with a poor kid like me was not as good as her rich fiance, so she quickly leaves me, goes back to him. I'm sitting there now going well, I don't have anything. And a good friend of mine he was a deputy he was like well, stay at my apartment. I'm not there hardly ever. I'm living with my girlfriend most of the time. So I'm sitting in his apartment and I have like, oh yeah, I have to add that the vet ended up firing me later on because when the girl I was dating decided to go back to her fiance, well, that made work a little bit more, you know, tension oriented. Yeah, he was like, okay, you got to go because you've only been here a few months, she's been here for years, see you later. So now I have like no job, I'm just cleaning kennels, doing stuff.

Speaker 2: 17:01

And I was sitting in his house counting. I took his change jar and I dumped it out and I'm counting through all the pennies and nickels and whatever to get enough money so I could walk to the albertsons down the road so I could get at least tuna, fish and bread, because I could at least eat that. And I was like, okay, this life sucks, I don't want to do this anymore. And then that's when I decided to go to the recruiter. And then I decided I was going to go in the Air Force, thanks to the tip from my uncle and I went to the Air Force and I was just there a couple weeks ago, almost 28 years to the day from when I went through there the first time as a just a airman basic and back at the dog school. We're now 28 years later.

Speaker 2: 17:41

I had the opportunity to go teach there after being a handler, handler there, going through the school, and that's what kicked off the career at that point for me was going through the military, going to the Air Force, being selected to go through military, working dog school and then being of all places to get stationed at. I get stationed in Ramstein Air Force Base, germany, and at first, when I get that notification or I get the orders, I was all bummed out. I was like, oh man, I want to be back in florida, be near bob, be near my friends. And I call up bob and I was like, hey, you know, I got my orders, I'm going to germany. This sucks, I, I don't, I want to be back in florida. And he goes shut the f up, he goes, you are going to where we learn all of our dog stuff. Yeah, I don't want. It's like you're going to the homeland.

Speaker 2: 18:26

I don't want to hear you complain of how you're being stationed in Germany. You should be taking this opportunity to go learn. And that sunk in and I embraced it from that moment on. And then my years in Germany, I did exactly what kind of he said I should do, which is then I went and traveled all over Europe, learned the different programs from KNPV to Schutzen to French Ring to Mondior Ring to NVBK. You know, having enough years over there, I was able to kind of really get engrossed into the European dog culture, which was super cool.

Speaker 2: 19:02

And then from there in that timeframe, out of all the places I picked to live off base, the place I end up at the backside of that property was a farm field. But I kept hearing, the first few weeks I lived there, dogs barking on Friday nights and on Sunday mornings. And being a dog handler, we all kind of know barks right, we know bark a certain way and I kept hearing this barking that sounded like German Shepherds. So I was like so then finally, one day on Sunday I walked through this cornfield, come out the other side and then there is the Schaeferhundverein of Kaiserslautern, which is a little German Shepherd club right there. So I walk up. I'm like Sprechen Sie Engl, english? And they were like of course we do. The Air Force base is right there, why would we not speak English? So from that moment forward, I ended up becoming a member, going to the club, becoming a, going to become a helper, a decoy, and lo and behold, was a Poli-Sci handler that lived there and worked or would go there, and he was one of the guys that would help out in training.

Speaker 2: 20:24

No-transcript. They gave me, like it's called, dpo2, which is a police dog title, and by getting that it put me in a position that when I got out of the Air Force and came back to the United States, I was a young American who got lucky and had been through at that time Wendell Knope those who know him, he's a trainer that was based out of Utah. The Utah Post was started because of Wendell Knope, but he had been through the German police dog program and about a handful of other Americans. We were it's a few numbers, but it opened the door for this 28-year-old kid, me, to come back to the United States and start hosting police canine classes. Back to the United States and start hosting police canine classes. So I'm teaching cops at 28, 29 years old with only my military law enforcement experience and some good dog knowledge how to do some dog stuff and that's kind of the start to the next level of starting in my life.

Speaker 1: 21:19

For that so funny when, how life does that, when you kind of decide, like you know, maybe I am young and a dipshit, I don't really know anything and you kind of get out of your own way and you realize how, really, if you can do that and stay committed to that, the path is there to follow.

Speaker 1: 21:40

Right, like that, like that's perfect, like that's a perfect setup for you at that stage of life. Right, not that you knew what it was going to lead to on the back end of it, but to get shipped off across the world to the mecca of that world of dog training, you know, and in an environment that also seemingly based on the story and I know it was the cliff note version but seemed very open and welcoming yes, you know, to this young guy, yep, whereas we both know, in this industry a lot of times groups aren't super open and welcoming, and so how amazing is that? So you get out of the air force, you come back home or come back to the States and start teaching seminars. Now, where are you going to post it up then?

Speaker 2: 22:31

So I grew up in Orlando, Florida. So when I got out of the Air Force and at this time I was married, so this when I was in the Air Force, I met this awesome woman who it was funny because I, we were on a bus, we had a weekend off while we were in the police training at the time when we weren't in dog school yet and I noticed her on the bus we're driving and I was. I look at the guy next to me, I'm like I could marry that woman and I don't know why I said that, but I said it and then didn't see her again because we were in different phases of training at the time. So then I ended up at dog school. See her there. Her name back then was Kelly Beard and I just gravitated to her.

Speaker 2: 23:08

Long story short. We got married. She was stationed initially at Minot, North Dakota, and I was in Germany, and then she eventually got over to Germany and then we came back. So once we got out of the military we decided to go back to where I grew up, which was in the big Sanford, Florida, and with the help of my parents at that time, there was. You know, I knew what I wanted to do. I actually was going to go and become a cop right away, and my parents were, like, why don't you try to do what you really want to do, which was to have a dog business?

Speaker 2: 23:39

So, anyway I ended up. I was driving to one of the Schutzen clubs and then, on the same road as the Schutzen Club, I see his house for sale. And back then this place was a 10-acre property with a house on it and it was down the road from the Schutzen Club. So everybody knew where to go and it was only like $189,000 to buy this place. So this is in 2000. So we bought the place. My parents co -signed for me, I get the place and then my parents gave me like seed money to start with. So then I built a kennel on the property. So we it was actually an old Christmas tree farm so we had to clear the property. We had to level it all out, do all this stuff, built the kennel and then that's what started and this was the funny part. So the the company name I had back then was called Universal Canine. Okay, and Universal canine was in Florida and I did that for about five or six years and the crazy part was which shifted. A lot of things was right. When I bought that property across the street, this huge development company buys all this land in front of me and they put 240 homes over in that property while my place was going on on this side of the street. So one side of the street was considered County agricultural land. The other side of the street was city of Sanford neighborhood and all the develops. To give perspective, this was in 2000. At this point, fast forward. Now it's 2000.

Speaker 2: 24:56

I got out of the military in 2000. Now we're at 2005, 2006. So I'd been in this property for five or six years. I've been teaching police canine classes. I was importing dogs from Europe. I was a Schweikert dealer. I had made friends with Tina and Michael Schweikert those that know that's one of the biggest German companies that sells like Schutzen style equipment and things like that. So I'm rocking and rolling. We're doing that kind of stuff. Kelly and I are still married at that time and being your late 20s and you know being you know your late 20s at this time I think I was 30, 31, maybe 32. And it was a lot of responsibility for not a lot of experience when it comes to business.

Speaker 2: 25:32

But the thing that happened was developers said we want to buy all this land because on my side of the road was acreage again, you know. So they wanted to come across. I kept making the joke hey, if you guys pay a million dollars, I'll sell. Well, this one lady who was a realtor represented a property behind me that was landlocked by my piece of property that was to the roadway. Anyway, she just said, hey, let me just try to see what I can wrestle up here and get a deal. So, anyhow, I'm doing a police canine class.

Speaker 2: 25:57

I see this back in those days it was really nice H2 Hummers. So I see this H2 Hummer roll up and I was like, ooh, someone's got some money. And she comes walking up to me and she goes hey, I sold the prop. I was able to sell the property if you're willing to sell. I was like for a million bucks. She's like no, but you know 849,000. And I was like what I said, oh, for all of our property. She's like no, that's just your piece. That was close to a million bucks. So I was like holy shit, okay. So I said, well, I don't want to move right now. Can they wait a few months? So she negotiated a deal.

Speaker 2: 26:30

The long story comes to. I decided to, we sold and my now ex-wife goes into working for one of our clients. I became a police officer for the local cities right there and that goes into that next phase. So by 33 years old I ended up getting divorced. I'm now a cop. I'm working in a city you know, I live five minutes from the PD and it's a small town agency and I had trained their police dog. I'd sold them their police dog. So I was I was actually at that time the local one of the local canine trainers in that region. So a lot of the police departments that were in where I worked had I either sold all the dogs to them or have trained them in some way or another, and I ended up working for that first department. Never was a dog handler with them. Then go to another department with I got dangled the carrot in front of me like, hey, we need a dog handler, you want to come work here? I go to them.

Speaker 2: 27:21

Next turns out the guy who hires me the day before he swears me in, he takes a job for the governor. So then now I'm on hold because now the interim chief can't make, I can't pull the trigger on me becoming a dog handler. And I still had to do training periods, I still had to become, go through FTO and all these things. So by the time all that happens, they end up hiring a chief from the outside, nobody from the inside. And then that guy realizes that agency needed a lot of other things to address, not just canine. So he straight up told me hey look, I'm not going to address the canine issue until I fix a bunch of other stuff.

Speaker 2: 27:55

So within 10 months of that agency I bounced to my best friends oh, the agency I had the closest ties with was the next big city up in Orlando. So there's orlando, there's next city called apopka, and those are your big cities in that in that orange county area. It's all changed since then, but anyhow, I go to apopka and I go from an agency where if you had a cat in a tree, you'd have five officers show up to apopka where there'd be a robbery, and then they have a lieutenant, get on the radio and ask the dispatchers is the robbery over over with or is it still? Is it currently active? And they'd be like it's over with. Okay, put it on hold until the next available unit. I'm going holy crap, you know, robbery call on hold because we're so busy as I'm going through there and you know a lot of my best friends at that time, who I had worked together when I was selling dogs and being a trainer with them, are now in positions of rank. So one of my really good friends at that time had become a lieutenant and he was like hey, look, I'll put you under my squad, cut you loose on Friday nights to be with our with the canine guys, and, of course, whenever a position opens up, you're a shoo-in for that. So I worked for them for a little over a year and I'm doing my thing. But now this is going to be 2009, ish.

Speaker 2: 29:04

The Iraq and Afghanistan wars are kicking off. You know, we're in full war mode. At that time and because of my business before, I had connections to people that were looking for dogs and I kept getting called by different government contractors and, hey Cameron, what are you doing? What's going on? Blah, blah, blah. And I was like I'm a cop. Finally, this one company says man, we need trainers, we need trainers, bad, and we're working on a contract with Kennedy Space Center and that's in your area. Would you want to come work for us and be the canine sergeant and run that program? And I was like, oh hell, yeah, that sounds awesome. Yeah, so I was going to jump on that.

Speaker 2: 29:38

And typical government contracting work. I'm going through the police academy for NASA, we're I'm going through the police academy for the for nasa and they, their contract got protested. And this is december 21st too. This is like right before christmas. There's people from all over the nation, you know, going through the academy and they're like sorry guys, everybody go home. The contract's protested and it's on a 90-day hold. So I'm now without the cop job. I'm now sitting at my house with not much to do.

Speaker 2: 30:03

The company did the right thing, said hey, we're going to keep you on payroll for as long as we can while this is being protested, right, and as I'm waiting and I start working to get some extra money for a guy named Bill Heiser who those that know Southern, it was called Southern Oaks Kennel back then. It's now called Southern Coast K-9. But anyhow, he and I had worked together back earlier days and anyhow he you know he and I had worked together back earlier days and anyhow he's like hey, come work for me, you can do some simple stuff. And he'd he'd pay like pennies on the dollar because I was cheap labor and so I'm doing that. But then one of those companies that was out there was a company called AM Canine or American Canine, and they were a small, small startup company then but they got one of the biggest contracts in Afghanistan. So then that ends up pushing me to Texas to go help them out. So now I'm in San Antonio Now. Remember my company name was called Universal Canine. After I sold that property I shut down the company so it no longer existed.

Speaker 2: 30:56

I'm in San Antonio for a couple of years at this point and then, while in San Antonio, become a reserve police officer in that area, I hear how there's. I kept hearing universal canine. I had people calling me up, going hey, I hear you're in San Antonio. And I'm like, yeah, I am, so you're doing your business there. And I'm like, no, I'm not. We talk I'm working for a government contract agency. And they're like there's a universal canine in San Antonio. And long story short to that story was they. There was a company that started universal canine out there, gets in trouble federally later on and that made a lot of news that he was taking GI money and doing really crazy shit. All the dogs got seized at that property. But it was funny because you know, for me people had just the one of the odds that I'm in San Antonio with a previous company named Universal Canine. And then there's this other company called Universal Canine. That's out there. That ends up getting in all this extra trouble later on.

Speaker 2: 31:48

But in that time of government contracting to circle back to that it really helped. I ended up under AM Canine. They were partnered behind the scenes with that company that first hired me for the Kennedy Space Center job. So while in San Antonio I switched from working with AMK9 to then becoming the manager for Ronco, and that was awkward. I went from just being a trainer lackey to now being a manager and then I was also the no guy. I had to say no to a lot of stuff to the other company because I had to represent the new company and in those days contracting those that had been through that. It's a very incestual type business, meaning that you could be working for like I worked for Ronco initially. Well, then Ronco gets bought out by another company. So then it looks like I changed jobs, but I don't. I'm still doing the same thing. And then a few years later they get bought out by another company and it looks like I switched jobs again and I'm not Meanwhile I'm still in San Antonio and all the way to the point where now it's 2000, I want to say it's 13.

Speaker 2: 32:49

And those the wars were drawing down, those big companies owned huge contracts. They didn't care about dogs anymore. I had built a whole nother kennel for them. And it was a lot, of, a lot of experience in cutting my teeth for what became later in life really important stuff to your point you made earlier. It was a lot of opportunities, a lot of unique things that happened that I didn't want to miss out. I wanted to gain experiences. So I finally get to you know, when I'm in Texas I'm working as a reserve constable up in that area. But I had, I got a dog. So I was a canine handler, I was working my dog, I was able to do things. You know nothing fancy, nothing you know over the top, but I was. I'd also finally accomplished a goal of wearing the badge.

Speaker 2: 33:32

Working the dog and being in Texas is very different than being a cop in Florida. Going through those experiences and then that's where, when that bigger company bought us out, they're like shut down the dog stuff. We don't care. I'm in limbo for a year. I end up linking up with a guy named Jeff Franklin. I had helped with him before years earlier just doing a couple of things. And Jeff had the Navy SEAL contract and I happened to run into him at a conference. He was like this is like, let's say, it's June or something, and at this time I've been living off of my severance package from the company when they bought us out. Jeff's like, you know, maybe in June or sorry, maybe in August I will have an opening, I'll let you know. And I was like, oh, okay, cool.

Speaker 2: 34:23

And at the craziest thing too, one of my best friends that was a cop with in florida, in apopka, had gotten out. I'd hired him in the contracting world and I'd heard through the grapevine and talked a little bit. He was going through the navy seal recruitment process, going straight in. So we talked that summer and he was like, hey, if all goes well, I'll graduate buds on august 1st. I'm sorry, no, august 10th. Either way, in the beginning of august he would graduate. And I I was like, dude, I want to be there for you.

Speaker 2: 34:42

And August 1st I get a phone call from Jeff Franklin. Hey, can you be in San Diego in about a week? I was like what? So I was like what's the job? He goes, you're going to be down there with the seals. It's probably only temporary, cameron. I might only need you for a couple of months. I was take anything right now. I was at that point getting broke again. Yeah, so I hop, I get some shit together, hop on a plane, get my ass to san diego. And the coolest thing was I ended up being there just a few days after my friend graduated, buds. I'm now on a seal team base doing that stuff, living down the road from the base, and I it just connected.

Speaker 2: 35:16

For me it was I didn't have a wife, didn't have a girlfriend, didn't have anything, while these other trainers all had personal lives. So I would spend all my time down at the kennels doing stuff and it helped me connect to those guys who are operators. They, they know their shit, but they also respected my work ethic at that time where I was in a lot of extra effort just because I had nothing else to do and I really loved doing it. And the funny, funny part was working for bill heiser also made you really hypersensitive to. You got to be working, got to be moving. You can't be sitting still because you know old heiser, they would drive around his golf cart be like hey, what are you doing? Why are you sitting around? You know yell at you. So I had that mentality just because I've been around bill for so long. So anyhow, it worked really well for me at that period of time and then the next four and a half years. It was a really cool experience and at that time I'd been doing the dog stuff. So if I graduated my first canine school in 1995, fast forward now it's 2000,. We're getting close to 2018.

Speaker 2: 36:13

I had been with the SEAL teams, like I said, for a little bit over four years and I was. I get to the SEAL teams. I should say I should go back a couple of years. I get there and I felt confident in what I was doing. But when I would sit there and listen to some of these meetings and some of these things that they would wonder or ask can the dogs do this, that or the other, it made me second guess. A few things like did I train this right or could I train this this way? And that is where I realized I needed more than just my personal experience. I needed more than just what I had been regurgitating, what I had learned. And then I kind of I was.

Speaker 2: 36:54

I was never a great student in school, I was like a typical C student and school wasn't my thing. But I was super intrigued by the science part of the dog aspects. It was just something that kind of connect. I'm like I know there's more than what I believe. I know there's got to be something that backs up what I have experienced.

Speaker 2: 37:10

So I slowly found my way into the science world and it all started from a TV show called is your dog a genius and it was this guy named Brian hair and I'm watching him do some really cool stuff and I'm going man, he's kind of highlighting some issues I see in detection, like handler influence and things like that, just by doing these simple little brain game tests. So, for whatever the reason was, I tried to search him on Google. I find his name, I shoot a couple of emails out to different email addresses to guys named Dr Brian hair at Duke university and, man, two days later I get a call or I guess I get an email from him going hey, cameron, thanks for the email. I would love to collaborate with you in some way or help you out with some of these questions that you have and that led me into the whole canine cognition aspect, learning how the dog's mind is, and how critically important it was for any type of training. It turned out it wasn't how I viewed it.

Speaker 2: 38:03

It wasn't just for detection, and even to this day I travel all over the place teaching canine cognition and so many people think it's all related to detection work and it's not. I mean, I think one of the best programs around that would help people extremely is PSA. If they understood some of the cognitive stuff in their dogs, how their dog solves some of these problems. Because, psa being so, there's so many variables at play and so many things that can change on a dime, based on conditions of the trial itself, that if you are a trainer and you understand some of the cognitive aspects of your dog and how your dog learns, you're going to make a big difference in what you do in a sport like PSA or mondioring or police work or like what we do, the Navy SEALs. And it's not just a detection thing.

Speaker 2: 38:50

But that period of time that opened that door to me to go wow, science and later on chemistry had major impacts on what I thought I knew, and there's a slide I shared on my lectures that starts off with belief is the death of reason, and those that know Game of Thrones there's a guy there that comes from that. But nothing is truer in that statement, because in our dog world we will fight to the death for our beliefs, even in the face of fact and reason, contrary to what we believe. But we don't want to be wrong. We don't want our sacred cow to now no longer have value and our egos will prevent us from looking at it from a different perspective.

Speaker 2: 39:43

Perspective, and I really, once I got into the photography and videography like we're talking about earlier, I sat there and I kind of laughed, because when you get around photographers or you get around chefs or you get around artists, they can compete but they admire each other's work, even if it's different. If I'm a chef and I make spaghetti and this other guy makes spaghetti, I can taste his and totally appreciate it and go, damn, how did you make that? Oh, I make spaghetti. And this other guy makes spaghetti, I can taste his and totally appreciate it and go, damn, how did you make that? Oh, I did this and this and this. And then they can eat mine and go Ooh, you know, I like mine, but yours just gives me a different, and it's so cool when you see people from these other professions look at what each other creates. They do so with admiration, and I'm not saying that those worlds don't have their competitive side Of course they do.

Speaker 2: 40:25

But I wish, or I hope, that the dog industry, the dog training industry, starts taking those lessons from the science world, from the chef world, from the artistic world, and we appreciate what these trainers or people can create with dogs and not look at it as something that is a detriment or an insult to me.

Speaker 2: 40:50

Or I have to one-up them because I just don't like the way they do it, or I spend more of my time highlighting how bad that system is or how bad that trainer is, versus focusing on my work and how can I make what I do better? Be inspired by your competitor to maybe take a few things from them, right? Or how can I look from afar and go whoo, you know nothing for nothing? Look from afar and go whoo, you know nothing for nothing. As much as I may not like how that is, or I may not agree with that method, but it works for them and what they do. What can I take from that? Or can that inspire me as a trainer and I can say that is a good lesson for me to re-evaluate what I do, how I do it or what can I do to be better and connect with a dog more or share information in a way that it's received like that guy does, or that guy so that's a long way off that high horse.

Speaker 1: 41:52

You know, when you get up there, finally, you know in particularly the, the folks that are really really high on the horse man, it takes a lot of time to come down off that thing.

Speaker 1: 42:03

Oh yeah, and you were so loud about your way up there Couldn't possibly be another option, not even necessarily better, but just different.

Speaker 1: 42:13

That could also work.

Speaker 1: 42:14

It's a funny thing, it's really really funny, and I love the collaboration piece and you know, when I look at that, that's one of the things I've gotten feedback from a lot of my teammates who have gone to different courses or done online stuff with you or been on site with you is the collaboration between the people that are there, the different types of dogs, the different levels you'll have, you know, canine teams and then you'll have a handler who's just looking to get into sport or you know someone who's like you know what?

Speaker 1: 42:44

I think I'd like to go this bed bug path with this dog and you got into the room kind of a combination of different levels and skill sets and everyone came back, always saying how it was unlike a lot of other things they'd been to before in our world, because it was super chill, like everyone was pressed, like there was accountability. You know there was reasoning, but it was a very inclusive and collaborative environment, wanting to see the dogs get better and, in turn, the handlers get better, or really the handlers get better so that the dogs could get better.

Speaker 1: 43:23

So the dogs could get better because you know these dogs, you know gosh, you know they, their, their abilities are damn near limitless. We're, we're the, we're the break, you know, on anything that the dog's trying to do. And so once again, we can get, get out of our own way. You know, I remember when I first started learning about uh, tracking and trailing and um, you know the nose work piece, before I had become a trainer. You know, I'd always trained my own dogs and been around them and stuff. But I'd gotten into bird hunting and I was out we were doing some upland hunting and I was watching my buddy's labs work and I could have cared less if I shot a bird, it didn't matter to me. I was enamored at watching these dogs just do what they knew to do instinctually. And then the training they got on top of it to really bring out those skill sets. I was just in awe. It was amazing.

Speaker 1: 44:16

And so you know, I had a Roddy at the time. She passed away maybe a year after I'd gotten into bird hunting and we got this little field trial black lab. You know hunt background. Oh, I hated this dog. I got exactly what I wanted, but I did not understand what I was getting and you know her wild ass, she was everything I wanted. I just didn't realize it and you know, we got on the same page and everything was cool. But same thing, we'd go out and hunt, we would do duck hunting, upland, whatever, and just love watching the dog work.

Speaker 1: 44:49

And then I got exposed to to tracking and trailing. You know, jeff shuttler probably, I'm sure, yeah, and so you know, kind of through their program started learning about tracking and trailing and that just blew my mind and you know, being on the end of that long line and feeling the dog work through that line, I have hair standing up the back of my neck just thinking about it right now. But it's just such an amazing thing and so much of that learning process, learning what we need to recognize and what the animal is doing, not so much as teaching the dog but recognizing what the dog is doing so that we can interpret what's happening. You're talking about when you were hiding and the dog. The handler would miss you, the dog kind of. If he had picked up on a cue, the handler could and maybe hesitated for a second, the dog probably would have been on you in seconds, but instead he's guiding the dog along and the dog's like well, you're the boss, let me go where you're going.

Speaker 1: 45:49

And so when you see those things it's so freaking incredible. And we did a couple tracking seminars up here in Virginia that we hosted and we had people from around the country come and the people that really kind of just checked the ego and were just open to learning, they had the best time and they left with the most information and they couldn't believe. The most fun part to me was because people brought all sorts of different dogs, different breeds. They just wanted to give it a shot and see.

Speaker 1: 46:21

I would have bet good money that these dogs would not have had success. But their handlers were so open to what was being taught, they were so good at reading their dog man. At the end of the three, four days I mean, these little dogs would out-track everybody that you would have put easy money on. And it typically wasn't the dog's fault, handler's fault, while the one who should have been a rock star wasn't succeeding, it was the ego of the handler that kind of held him back. So always an interesting thing that I see when I see people coming back from different seminars and courses, but it was always positive feedback coming back from yours. I thought that was awesome.

Speaker 2: 47:02

Yeah, and what you bring up was so obviously. I came into this world in dogs from the military law enforcement background and now, over the years, teaching, because in my career I learned things from people outside of my world. The best learning I got was from outside the institutional side of military law enforcement, learning from people like Michael Ellis and and other guys like Ivan Belobanov and you can name a bunch of different trainers, even trainers that people never heard of before. Some of the best things I got came from outside of my world. Yeah, so when I started Ford Canine, the goal was to have my classes open to whoever wanted to learn detection. Yeah, so, every class and it's still to this day you know now that I'm up here in California, the we just had a class a few months ago and it always starts off the same way there's the cops in the class, Then there's sometimes conservation handlers in the class, there's a couple maybe search and rescue people in the class, and then there's some civilians sprinkled in there as well that are just doing some form of detection, whether it be for sport or they're trying to find their way in. So, day one through three, the camps are all kind of around you like the cops hanging together, search and rescue hanging together it's always kind of separated, but by day four, because we create exercises and learning where they have to interact with each other, by that middle to end of that first week they're all kind of sharing stories with each other and they're sharing experiences and then looking at it from another lens that they had never looked at it from before. And that's the beauty of those classes.

Speaker 2: 48:46

And then you know, I obviously share lots of stories and experience from my side of the world, which was the police, military side. But my trainer, Natalie, that works for me, she's civilian and shares her experiences from the civilian, sport and other forms of detection aspect and she's worked for me and trained cops and has done a lot of other things too. But the two of us as trainers, and now that Michael's part of the classes, you've got Michael Ellis coming at it from not a detection dog handler but clearly a skilled trainer and training concepts or training concepts across disciplines. So there's a lot of stuff that he shares that is super relevant to detection, even though that's not where it started from Right.

Speaker 2: 49:30

When people show up to this environment, by the end of week two people are like man, this sucks. I don't want it to end because you know it's become a little family and that's also I have to say it's become a little family and that's also I have to say it's in part of to the atmosphere of this place itself, because michael's school up here I mean, he bought a old school- oh, okay there's a, we have a cafe area and then there's a huge kitchen and then some people can stay.

Speaker 2: 49:56

There's only a few spots left, but there we have rooms here on campus, so some people will live on campus while they're in school, others obviously staying at hotels. But what always happens is, when training is done for the day, the people that are staying here, along with others, even though they're not staying on site all hang out and use the indoor training room to go work their dogs, share stories, someone's cooking in the kitchen area and, before they know it, it's this atmosphere and what's great about the length of class, because michael used to do his for like 15 weeks long and he would share stories of like weeks one through three. Everybody loved each other. Weeks three through about nine, everybody had camped up and didn't like each other and then all of a sudden, around week yeah, I think it was, like he said, 12 they realized there's like two or three weeks left. They're all lovey-dovey again because they know it's ending.

Speaker 2: 50:41

But our two-week class, it's the perfect time because there's only a few days where people are just getting to know each other. Yeah, the rest of the time is the mutual appreciation and getting to look at detection specifically from a different lens from what they were used to realizing. The bigger picture is they all share the same issues. Didn't matter if it was a search and rescue handler or a cop or a bed bug detection handler.

Speaker 2: 51:09

They all share a lot of the same struggles yeah detection and that's reading your dog indication how to work a certain area. What's the best way? Is there a certain method better than this and why should I search this way and not this way? But when they're around each other, it gives them the oh now stuff you can't get from social media right and again back to that point way earlier we talked about. When you're on social media, you argue points like crazy, even to the point like you mentioned.

Speaker 2: 51:39

I remember and it's still a very contested thing tracking or trailing. And I mean I remember years ago this is, like I said, saying back in my cop days me and my best friend would argue because we had switched from german shepherds to malinois in our career and we were working these type of dogs and we realized they needed different things and we would get these tracking, trailing arguments and finally turn the light on in my head and my friend goes I don't give a fuck what you call it, call it tracking, call it trailing, whatever. All I care about is the result of finding the person in that space and I'm going to let my dog use whatever means it. It learns to be successful at finding a person.

Speaker 2: 52:21

So, that means it's heads up and it can find the person great if it puts his head no, his nose down the ground and does that great. I have one job, if you are within my search area, that my dog can find you, that's right who am I to say which one is better than the other one?

Speaker 2: 52:35

if this dog is successful at finding you now, it doesn't mean that there aren't good, sound ways to look at how you approach a certain type of search environment. So, are we in a urban environment, are we in a really outdoor, rural environment? And the bigger thing is it's exposing the dog, how to be successful at locating the human target in that space. And if this dog naturally is successful, heads up, boom, great. If this dog heads down, okay, great. We again, dog trainers, are dog trainers. We like to camp up, and I'm the group. I like taking a spray bottle and spraying water down pavement. That works for me, but the way they do it is this is the only way to do it Right. Or I have to stomp my feet on the ground and I have to spit and put my. You know all the different things, and then we fight so vigorously for that particular method versus going. I think they all work.

Speaker 1: 53:40

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 53:42

It's what works for your dog, but be willing to look at all those tools for the toolbox versus excluding them simply because it goes against what maybe you were first taught or it goes against your philosophy at the time.

Speaker 1: 53:59

Yeah, it's so true. And the limitations that you put on the dog that is in your possession at that time. So, yeah, this dog may work for incredibly well, and aren't you fortunate. But you get that different dog next round and that dog that's not its natural abilities coming through. It doesn't pick up on that way. What are you and you? You refuse to look at any other tools or opportunities to help to pull it out of the dog. And you know for years, you know off leash canine training. You know top e-collar trainers in the country.

Speaker 1: 54:36

I'm not saying there aren't other ways to train dogs. I'm saying for us and how we train the dogs we work with where we expect them to be at, 99% of the dogs that we work with, this is a great way because of how we use the tool. My saying is the only way to use tool? Absolutely not. So I'm saying it's the only tool out there. Never said that. A lot of great tools out there for us. So it's what we do. It's like well, josh, I've had people come through on teams. Well, I want to train it all this way. Like you can do that. You absolutely can do that and you'll probably do really, really well with it. You're just not going to do that here because that's not what we do as a part of how we do this, and so I'm not saying you can't, I'm just saying you can't hear because of something that we do from a larger perspective and continuity, and so, but still being open to what are those tools and you know, with us it's always been an important thing and nick has done a really good job too of leading the way with this.

Speaker 1: 55:34

But hey, you know there's places in europe we can't use e-collars anymore. What if that happened here? And they're like, hey, are you just an e-collar trainer or are you a great dog trainer? Because if you're a great dog trainer, you're. You have the knowledge, you have the abilities, you know how to use multiple tools, you know how to read an animal, you know how to motivate an unmotivated dog. You know, being the great dog trainer has very little to do with the tool at hand. And that that's the part where I've always talked about I'm like guys, like I think if you were the most effective trainer with an e-collar right how we use it, how I use it, that tool for me I can have the happiest, most motivated, ready to rock and roll dog. I don't need to use a bunch of other tools and stuff. If you lean in a bunch of tools in combination and that's what, for you, works and you, that's how you develop a dog and that works for you. Awesome, for me, this is how I do it and we're going to run with.

Speaker 1: 56:31

I'm not saying don't do it that way and you can't do it that way, and I'm not saying that won't work. I'm saying for me, these are my tools lined up, how I like to apply them and use it. But I still got to know how to use this. I still got to know about that. I still want to learn why you're doing it that way, but not in attack mode. Hey, dummy, why are you doing it that way? Just talk to me about that. What's the point? Walk me through the process of why you're doing it that way, and then I'm going to share with you the process of why I do it my way. And then I always tend to find out.

Speaker 1: 57:01

We could probably combine these a little bit, or combine that mentality a little bit. Or you know, hey, I saw this with a dog similar personality, similar background. What I was doing wasn't working, but I saw a guy pull out these resources, this tools, this philosophy got to be open. There isn't one damn way. And it's very disheartening when you see the people that the only side of the argument they want to be on is their side of the argument Correct, because only one who loses in that is whatever dogs end up in that person's possession. Yep, right, like it's not going to hurt my feelings, you don't agree with me, no problem. But if we open our minds a little bit, could we be better for the dogs?

Speaker 1: 57:42

And that's the part where I really challenge people to like we, we started hosting cameron. Um, oh, just last week actually. Um, I'm doing a monthly here in virginia and I'm doing one in dallas, also monthly. But dog trainers, dog and owners, I'm like, hey, lunch on me, let's hang out for 90 minutes and just talk shop, talk industry. What are we seeing? What's going on? What are you struggling with? Right, like I'm so over the polarity of the industry. It's sick and I was like I'll be the one to say, hey, we're better together for sure you know and like what are, what are things?

Speaker 1: 58:19

and there's a lot of folks out there that are struggling right now and you know, I feel very fortunate that you know. Knock on wood, you know we're we're not and we're staying busy and we've got a large team we continue to recruit. I'm not saying we're doing everything right, but there are some things that we're doing right. I know there's a lot of things we do differently than a lot of people and at this point in the career, it's not about I need you to do worse so I can do better. There's plenty of dogs out there to help, you know, and it's like, if I can help you do better, that's going to benefit more families, more dogs. If there's things that you can do to help me do better, well, that's going to benefit more families, more dogs and a more collab.

Speaker 1: 58:58

That was kind of my thing. Going into 2024 is collaboration and um. I'm not surprised by the lack of openness that we've run into. Sure, I'm really, really, uh, motivated by the great conversations I've been having with people that we probably never would have done it yeah and people are just coming and sitting down and we're just having conversations and some friendships are forming.

Speaker 1: 59:20

I'm excited to see what happens with the relationships and I'm most excited to see how it benefits the dogs. Yep, because we're blessed to have a career and a living because of these animals. Why would we limit? You know putting their best, you know our best foot forward, you know, for the dogs. So I don't know what. What's next for Ford canine man?

Speaker 2: 59:44

Well, it's funny I'll continue your point for a second and it reminded me of my time working with Jeff and Cobra canine and being in that part of that seal team stuff it was. It was a couple of things. So for your first point being what do I do as a trainer if whatever tool I like or I'm using is not available, taken away, whatever? And in that special forces community it is they're taught multiple skills because things break, fall apart, fail whatever. So one of the lessons is can you be diverse in what you're doing to get the job done? And so that was one of the things you know. I kind of knew, but it really resonated even more. Second part of that is to your point of like, hey, this is the way the company does it. I understand, I like that you look at things differently.

Speaker 2: 1:00:28

That was a lot of mine and Jeff's relationship. We were probably really close, in agreement in a lot of things, but we'd also have diverging points. And what was so good about working with him? Some of our best times together were hanging out, sometimes in a car, talking some of these ideas out, and he would push me and be like well, why do you think this and why do you think that? Or explain it to me so I understand how you're thinking about this. And many times he'd be like you know what. That's a good point, but we're not going to do that right now. And his point being is continuity of his contract jeff's contract, not cameron's contract correct and he had to have uniformity across coasts. He had to have the east coast of the west coast basically be doing the same thing. Yep, and in the end it's kind of what cost me the job, because in and though he agreed in principle, like so what for me at the end was I fought really hard to do.

Speaker 2: 1:01:25

We had this army guy come in and he viewed like his mission and way he wanted to do some things was very different than what the seal team guys, including myself, agreed with, kind of allocating time and resources to stuff that wasn't as critically important as other areas. And I fought for the point of what the team guys wanted a lot of times and we would just go that way and Jeff was great with cause. He understood where we were coming from. But at the end of the day, he's a contract holder and every year for us every right around September, october, end of September, beginning of October, was when our contracts got renewed and it was I think it was September 27th.

Speaker 2: 1:01:59

I just graduated SEAL Team 3 and Jeff was there and we hand out certificates and walk outside and he's like, hey, so you're gonna need to pack up your stuff, they're not gonna renew your contract. And I was like what? So he shows me this email and basically they're going after him because he wasn't controlling or I wasn't following the rules or what that major at that time wanted from the army. And Jeff was like, hey, look, you know I'm not saying I don't agree with what your goals were or what the team guys wanted, but I can promise you you are not going to cost me this contract.

Speaker 2: 1:02:33

And it's at that point now where they have pushed that they want change and they're creating this new rule in a sense this one guy was trying to do. It was a way to push out, get new blood in, push out. Those of us had been there longer. Yeah, I say push out. It was just we had reached that atmosphere at that time, had a little more contentious relationship, because there was this army guy who was the project manager of the navy seal program and that alone created some unique. Yeah, that's interesting to me, but the bigger picture was that I didn't fully appreciate or take in consideration was, yes, it was a good effort to take care of the guys and want to do what the mission really was, but I still worked for somebody.

Speaker 1: 1:03:18

Yeah, yeah, right.

Speaker 2: 1:03:19

I still worked for somebody. I still worked for Jeff, who had a contract to work for the Navy, and though we had lots of latitude and Jeff was really good about letting some of us trainers I'll say this, for at least for me he was really good about letting me kind of do what I wanted to do as long as I stayed within those bumpers, and that was a very important lesson that I had to go through to now share that with others in the future. Like, hey, I love that you're creative as a trainer, I love that you're willing to do these things. I really want to, you know, support your efforts to learn more, but under this circumstance or under if you work for an agency, you work for a company. There's a reason why we have it this way and I know you may not agree with all of the things. I support you learning and I want you to grow, but we do have some rules that we need to adhere to and follow, at least if you want to keep staying here, if you want to be Mr Independent or Mrs Independent and go do your thing. Well, it might come at a cost, and for me it came at a cost later on and it turns out it was the best thing that ever happened, because at the time I was already secretly I won't say secretly, it wasn't a secret but I had accomplished a lot in that time and I was ready to move on and I was looking at options. I knew I wasn't going to stay there much, much longer, but I didn't get to leave on my terms. And that sometimes in life when you, it's easier to leave when it's your choice, but when someone says hey, pack your shit, get out, you got to go, that's that sucks. But in the end it made me better and I'm older, wiser, more appreciative of those lessons that I learned.

Speaker 2: 1:04:58

So don't take those things when you're a trainer, when someone you feel confined by the rules of who you're working for or whatever use as a lesson and do what they tell you to do. But if you reach a point where it's time to grow, then move on. But if you don't and you try to force your way through their system, you're gonna be out and it's not nearly as beneficial as follow the rules grow. When you're ready, move on. And because, like you said, our biggest picture is we can all respect each other's points of view versus what's the hardest thing is when someone holds you down. That's where a lot of disgruntled people come from, is when they're forced into. This is the way, or they're constantly shut down. And again, that's where, for me, and with Jeff specifically, jeff could have told me and I've watched him do that to other people no, this is the fucking way we're doing it. Shut up and do it this way. He never treated me like that. He treated me with that great mutual respect of like. Okay, I'm curious, why do you believe it this way? Or why do you listen and talk me through it? And, like I said, that was for trainers, just like what you're talking about, what you do, coming together collectively, pushing the egos aside and saying let's talk about this stuff. That's right now.

Speaker 2: 1:06:15

I don't feel it the way you do, but it's like, actually, the bigger example in your guy's world is the force free versus punishment. Right, that's one of your guys. Oh yeah, that's a huge othering argument. Everybody has to be on one side or the other. There's these huge fights across the internet and social media and everything else versus going. You know what. There's truths to both sides. Yep, the one side who's force free has seen. There's been individuals who've seen really abusive style training and they don't want to see dogs go through that and none of us do. There's the other side that says, okay, force-free, show me with this dog how you would do that. And there's versus the conversation that we can have. We can just say if we're willing to set the egos aside, because I'm all for if someone can show me something new and I can be better from it.

Speaker 2: 1:07:07

Man, I'm all ears. But if I come into the conversation with my ears off and my mouth open, we're screwed from the beginning. So, and if I have to yell, you can't hear me. And that's one of the other lessons I've learned in life as a dog trainer. If I have to raise my and I have, I've been that guy I'm still working on how to deliver because there's still a lot of military cop in me.

Speaker 2: 1:07:30

At times my trainer laughs her ass off when she sees something and my glasses go flying off my head and I'm like you know, I go into these modes. But she calls she jokes around those that watch the Office. She calls oh, here comes prison, mike. You know I put my blue bandana on. I'm like oh, you're to scare you straight, you know. But, and I've and I've learned that over the years is to take it in and try to explain and have a two way conversation on how to solve whatever we're doing with the dogs, and that has been. It's a huge blessing to be able to, because that's the better. No matter what on either side of the argument is the betterment for the dog.

Speaker 1: 1:08:08

Yes.

Speaker 2: 1:08:15

And that's where I think a lot of those things get missed is because we put ourselves in front of the dog versus what works best for the dog, even though we all say, well, I'm doing this for the dog, yeah. Versus what works best for the dog, even though we all say, well, I'm doing this for the dog, I put my stance as the number one thing. I'm inhibiting on what could be best for the dog. Just like back to that tracking, trailing argument I had with my friend.

Speaker 2: 1:08:31

So, but circling back to what you said, what's up ahead for 4K9. So we have our next trainer school in June. I still you know my goal. Goal now by moving to California was to be traveling less. The past couple of years I've been on the road 40 something weeks of the year. This year it's a little less, but I'm off to the UK next.

Speaker 2: 1:08:49

We are developing a ton of stuff online because that's where it's going these days, so there's already lots of resources. I do webinars all the time. So if people want to go to afford caninecom, there, I believe there's already lots of resources. I do webinars all the time. So if people want to go to afford caninecom, uh, there, I believe there's already 40 something webinars on there. I got a webinar on this. I don't know when this podcast comes out, but we're having a webinar in a couple of days and there's there's just lots of resources. I just tell people to go to our website, follow social media. I do lots of like little brain teaser or conversation starters, as we're talking here about dog training and detection ideas, and my whole goal is just to share, from my perspectives, things that could be either thought provoking or different perspectives, because, looking at it from a different lens. If I can get out of one lens and look at it from another lens, I learned something.

Speaker 2: 1:09:35

I learned what not to do. I may learn what I like even better than what I was doing. So that's the philosophy or the ethos for what I do. A lot now is the sharing of the ideas. You know the good, the bad, the ugly, and I don't have to agree with a lot of things, but I can also say there's merit to things.

Speaker 2: 1:09:50

Yeah, and what works for me may not work specifically for that dog team, and I want you to embrace that. You know you don't have to. I don't want people to also blindly follow me. I want to look at it with perspective and say, man, that was really good, but why did you do it like this? I talked to so-and-so and they do it this way. I actually enjoy those conversations. They're not offensive to me at all. I'll say you know what you know like. That trainer is extremely skilled at what they do and it works really well for them. But here's pros and here's cons and here's what I do. Here's my pros and here's my cons, and you can look at it and figure out what works best for you. So that's the main philosophy, what I do on social media and YouTube and obviously the podcast and things like that.

Speaker 1: 1:10:28

I love that because if there weren't people out there willing to share information, willing to teach those who are interested in learning, like I didn't know, this was a career path for me. I was. I was 35 when I opened my first location. You know I backgrounds finance and real estate and I was running a really big church at the time, actually, when I started my off, my first off leash location, and I had no clue that people did this for money yeah you know I'm like hold on, you train dogs and you, you can pay your bills too.

Speaker 1: 1:11:08

Yeah, yeah, I think you can sign me up for that. You know I like that and little could I have imagined what we would build. You know, fast forward, 10 years and impact. And you know, all thanks and recognition to my, my staff, my teams. You know they, they, they're the ones that are in it and doing it every day and I'm so thankful for them and the hard work that they do. But you know now my mindset is like okay, who else can we teach to do this? Who? Who?

Speaker 1: 1:11:37

You know, when I hire, you know I care less. I don't care what your dog background is, I don't even really, if I see a dog background half time, I'm skipping over it. You know, because I and anybody who you can ask anybody on my team. What's the first thing you know? Josh said to you he's like you need to be a good human being, you need to be coachable, you need to be passionate about dogs. If you're coachable, a good human, to be passionate about dogs, if you're coachable, a good human being, and passionate about dogs, fairly quickly I can make you a pretty good dog trainer Over time, you know, you can become remarkable, you know. But if you're a shitbag person, you're not going to care for the dogs the way we require dogs to be cared for.

Speaker 1: 1:12:15

You're not going to operate with a common sense standpoint of the dog's health and well-being the number one priority. If you're not coachable, you're gonna hate working for us or anybody in this industry, because all dog training is is learning that dog's either coaching you on something or somebody else is coaching you. So if you don't like to be coached, you're gonna hate this industry. Yeah, you know, and you need to be passionate about dogs because the fourth time in a day where it shits on itself, you know in that crate and you're climbing in there to clean it out. You really need to be passionate about dogs.

Speaker 2: 1:12:50

Oh, yes, and you're highlighting one of the shifts that I made recently, which was I spent many years bringing the science world into dogs and dogs like that, years bringing the science world into dogs and dogs like that. But now this year, my 2024 goal was to enhance and focus on the relationship aspect of human to dog. And it all sparked because I'm up here in northern california where our homeless population can be quite extensive. But I was sitting there in traffic one day and I'm watching this guy with his dog no leash walking through traffic with his bicycle and that's when we go and buy a bicycle next to him and going through cars and I'm like that guy's never been through a board and train, that guy's never been through, he's never gone through any extensive education of dogs per se, but damn, he's doing real world stuff that people aren't doing and it stems from his relationship with his dog. So that inspired me to say you know, one of the biggest things that I see people struggle with in the detection side of things, and you mentioned in the tracking is our ability to read our dog, to read when the dog is telling me something that stems from our relationship, and sometimes someone can have an amazing relationship with their dog, but they don't know some of those intimate details about their dog or they've let a training thing influence how they viewed it, versus going with their instinct of what their dog's telling them. And there's no perfect, so I have to tell them at first you're going to get it wrong. Still, no matter how good your relationship is, you might read your dog wrong. So don't don't worry about that. There's no perfect. But if we have a better relationship with our dog, we are fulfilling needs with our dog, we can gain. We can gain so much and do so many things that we didn't think were possible without some tool or reinforcer one way or the other. If I have a good relationship and I'm doing the things that fulfill the dog, in which return a lot of times, should fulfill me too. Yeah, yeah, so much I can do.

Speaker 2: 1:14:47

Outside of all the arguments we do in training, just going down to having the core relationship aspect of human to dog will get you so far, because you already know this the business that you're in the main, reason why people bring dogs for training is because their lives are too busy. They don't have, they're not able to invest, so they're looking for a fix and I know because I know Nick and I know you guys you have to as part of your whole training thing is the other component. You guys reach it. You know reach out to them on is go do things with your dog. Go by being active and doing these things, a lot of these other problems that they're currently reaching out to you for go away simply because of this, which is why you know a whole reason why a lot of the off-leash canine trainers came to us was because when we taught them some of the scent and odor games, gave them a tool to share with a client of.

Speaker 2: 1:15:42

Here's an activity you can do at home, you can do in a park, you can do in a lot of places, but it occupies your dog's brain, it satisfies internal needs and it builds a better relationship and it's just a simple game of hide and seek and detection with dogs and that's one of those things that builds relationships.

Speaker 1: 1:15:59

So yeah, the amount of times owners will say well, josh, my dog's gonna come stay with you for a couple weeks. You know, it only does this behavior at home, and I was like, well, here's the thing, this is what I'm gonna tell you. I probably won't see 70 of the negative behaviors while your dog's with me, yeah, and like, well, how are you gonna address it? I'm like magic. Yeah, right, that Magic. You know, most of these problems stem from one or two larger problems, and once those are dealt with, the other crap just falls off to the wayside. Plus, I'm going to equip you, though, to understand how to communicate with your dog in a way that, let's say, some off-the-wall behavior does pop up. You're going to be able to shut that down right away in a way that the dog understands. Y'all don't need to sit down and talk about it when you, when you, when you guide that dog on what's appropriate and what's not. It's done, yep, because we've addressed the bigger issues. I'm not going to see him try to eat rocks. Probably he's probably not going to lunge and bark at all. The dogs that walk by us. Yep, he's probably not going to pee in my house. Yep, he's probably not going to do all these things. Well, how do you fix it? Like, trust me, and they do. I'm like, trust the, the tens of thousands of videos and testimonials and reviews that you see, I'm like it, just it has. It has nothing to do with chewing the rocks. Chewing the rocks isn't the problem, no, right and so. But that's their reality, that's the owner's reality, and you know, and I always tell them like, hey, look, this is your specific stressor, that's fine, it is unique to you. I'm not trying to dismiss that because it is your specific, unique situation, but these things are really a part of one, two, three other things that we deal with on a daily basis, non nonstop, and we're going to be able to address it.

Speaker 1: 1:17:42

And to your point earlier, talk about the force free part, which is always one of my favorite things. You know there's a local vet here who, just God, she hates me, she hates me, she hates me and like I don't know if she gives commission for them at the front desk to just talk shit about me and our business and stuff. But we had a mutual client and a difficult client, difficult dog. No scenario where a client was going to do a great job with that dog moving forward. Just one of those tough deals, right? And anyway, I end up agreeing to go and meet with the client and the vet, because this is her vet, of course, right, so you know, know, we're both local businesses here.

Speaker 1: 1:18:22

I want to be professional. Sure, I'll do a sit down with you. Oh my gosh, she's giving me all these books about force free. She's like I really just think you expand your mind on training what actually works with the dogs, josh, and you know it was so disrespectful how she went about it. But the thing that's crazy to me is this particular place. I know for a fact a half a dozen dogs who did not get put to sleep based on their recommendation, because they brought those dogs. The owner made the decision to have their dog trained with us. Their recommendation was this dog should be put down yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:19:01

You know, and I'm like that's six lives. These are six dogs that in no way, shape or form, needed to be put down, euthanized. I mean, these are happy dogs, good contributing members of the family, they're great with the kids, they're great with. I'm never going to put a dog in a situation that isn't good for it. If I've got a I've had these conversations, you know where it's like hey, josh, we're having a baby. We got a second dog. This is a situation. What's going on? We've gone through the process and at the end of the day, I said hey, if it's me, you guys, my kids aren't going to be around this dog. So, before baby gets here, you might want to look to make a change. Right, either get that dog into the appropriate home or something.

Speaker 1: 1:19:38

I'm always going to put the dog's best interest first and it just bothers me so much when people run at it for such a black and white context and because if you do that, that is going to hurt the dogs. When you do that, that is going to set someone up for it. Well, this dog, josh, you have it in a crate and this dog does not want to go into a crate. Clearly, don't make that dog go into a crate. The dog said, hey, I don't want to go in the crate. Like, what are you talking about? I had the dog in a crate in two minutes and the dog's not stressed, the dog is relaxed. I require the dogs to be crated.

Speaker 1: 1:20:14

If we're going to transport them in vehicles, we don't allow the dogs to be loose. Well, josh, I don't want. My vet said that we need to sign a waiver so that because the dog just doesn't like to go in the crate and we're not going to make it, and that's an argument of that force-free side If the dog doesn't want to, I'm like shit. If I would have done that with my son when he was two, logan, how far would that have gotten? You didn't want to versus what you ended up having to do, whether you wanted to or not.

Speaker 2: 1:20:44

I don't remember asking you what you wanted to do. You know it's funny. You know there was a saying I used to use when, back when I did obedience, years and years ago, and I would tell people okay. So let's look at it in a human perspective. First, what you're trying to bring to me isn't you're saying that you have an alcoholic here and you want this alcoholic to get help. So You're saying that you have an alcoholic here and you want this alcoholic to get help. So you're bringing the dog to Alcoholics Anonymous. This is my place, so my place is alcohol free. We have rules, we have some guidelines, we have procedures, but no matter what I do, if I let the dog, when the dog leaves me and it goes back to your house, which is the bar, and you have bottles of Jack Daniels on the counter, you have beer cans open and ready. Your dog and you have bottles of Jack Daniels on the counter, you have beer cans open and ready your dog is going to become an alcoholic again, I promise you. So this means you need to make some changes and you need to put the alcohol away.

Speaker 2: 1:21:31

You have to admit that maybe some of the things that are happening are through your enabling of your alcoholic dog. This is why some of the issues exist, because, just like to the point you made with you, a lot of these things won't happen. And it's not because you're beating the dog, it's not because you. You just establish rules. And you can look at it from this perspective. If let's just take the statement of well nature, it takes care of things right. Or, and if I'm force free, and if I, and let's just let's'm force-free and let's move the goalposts all the way out to the end, let's treat to where some of the arguments could go.

Speaker 2: 1:22:08

Doing anything with dogs is just wrong. We should let dogs be dogs. Cool, got it? I'm with you, okay? So if you put packs of dogs together and as a cop, I would see packs of dogs roaming around cities all the time Absolutely of dogs together. And as a cop, I would see packs of dogs roaming around cities all the time. Absolutely, they have rules within their little structure so weird they will use social pressure.

Speaker 2: 1:22:30

They will even bite at each other. They will have full-blown fights. They use some level of consequence that is not positive. It's a negative consequence to establish what and how this group works together. So, taking the force-free argument all the way to its maximum effort, which means we don't do it. Humans should not own dogs. Humans, we should let dogs be free. They're creatures of the world. Let them be them, okay. And if we look at them from that perspective, they do the things that you're saying we shouldn't do. Now are there abusive techniques humans use? Of course, Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:23:11

There's no doubt about it. I don't argue that point at all. We humans are sometimes the worst when it comes to how we treat each other, how we treat animals. But we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater and say, because humans are dumb and make mistakes and do things, I wouldn't be here right now. I mean, I made so many mistakes in my life If I was treated in a certain way and held back and beat and everything else I wouldn't exist. So but if I had which I did I had consequences that taught me things. Consequences were positive and consequences had some negative aspects, but all of those things helped me become well-rounded, helped me understand that in life, no matter what we are, there are rules that exist. I can't just go do whatever I want to go do whenever I want to go do it, because there could be consequences to that.

Speaker 2: 1:24:04

And that's something that I think, if we pull back perspective and look at it from hey, all we want is a good relationship with our dogs and there's multiple ways to share communication and rules and certain dogs, just like humans, certain dogs there's a wire not connecting correctly, no matter what we do, and we have to find ways to work with that type of dog, just like as humans, life is life. There are individuals who have struggles and we've had to find ways to connect and communicate and help them, and there was good ways and bad ways. If you look at the way we probably treated people with certain types of conditions in the fifties, we would never dream of doing that today. We've learned more. That's the same thing with dogs and I know we all come from it from the same perspective, which is, like I said earlier, we all want what's best for our dogs or dogs in general. We don't have to agree completely, but we can't push the goalposts so far out that it's no longer reasonable anymore.

Speaker 2: 1:25:03

As we get closer, then it's like well, no, we're taking that away. No, well, let's do this, let's do this. And all I care about truly is if I can get somebody, let me bring the dog to you and you show me, using your technique, because all actions speak way louder than words. So I pick the dog with whatever thing it has and you, through your method, whatever it is, show me it works, and it's not gonna include medication, it's not gonna include euthanasia. Right, show me, cause I'm all about taking something to my toolbox If you can show me something that works really well, hell yeah, I'm going to take that method.

Speaker 2: 1:25:43

I'm going to walk away with it and be super happy that you showed me something, and I'm going to give you all the credit in the world too. Look, joe Blow, who uses this type of methodology, showed me this and dude. It worked and I'm happy to use it. In any case, I can. Yeah, also, jane Blow over here showed me something that also worked and that might be useful for that type of dog. So that's where it's got to be, instead of those othering aspects.

Speaker 1: 1:26:08

But it's so funny too, and then we'll wrap up. I'm beating you up on time, I'm sorry. You know it's the extreme right, it's the extreme. Whether it's humans and the extremist views on anything, it's always the extreme part of it right. And I would argue anything at its extreme is probably unhealthy, you know, and so it's like.

Speaker 1: 1:26:35

but everybody wants to argue based on the extreme implementation of a tool, a problem voices are on the extreme sides right, you know, whereas everybody most people are chilling in the middle just doing life and wondering, like, what's the fucking like? Why is everybody freaking out like?

Speaker 2: 1:26:54

you said, the middle section was where most people lie, where they see there's truths to the both sides, but they're not the loudest. The loudest come from the ones at the polar end on each side and they're advocating for their point. And, like I said, I respect points from both sides, but I also understand that neither extreme is correct either, and I, through a lot of years of doing this, now know that there's many ways to figure this out. But if I can, first and foremost, give the dog a good life and save the dog's life, yeah, then that's the most important thing. I'm not saying there isn't a case where something could be. I mean, I actually we had a dog that was had a brain disease. In the brain disease we had to euthanize. It was that was. It was. No, it was not right to keep the dog alive for miles to see it, because the dog was struggling really hard. Progressively, each day was becoming more aggressive and things were happening. And then, through necropsy, we found out why. I mean, it beat me up to have to struggle with what is wrong with this dog. What is happening Each day is worse and worse and worse. And so when they did the necropsy, lo and behold, there was actually something wrong in the frontal lobe of the brain. I forget exactly, it's been a number of years now, but that so it turned out. We made the better decision because the dog was truly suffering mentally. But there are those cases, so I get that. But suffering mentally, but it's, there, are those there's. There are those cases, so I get that. But there's a lot of knee jerk reactions Sometimes.

Speaker 2: 1:28:28

I think even to bring up Ivan again, he's he's recently shared this dog that was considered unsavable kind of thing. He took it and did a lot of rehab with it and he talks about and I talked to him personally recently about that. I was like so how'd that dog do? What'd you guys get work through that? And he's like the first thing I had to do is take it off some of the meds it was on because the meds had made the dog like a, like just veg out. Um, and he he said it was a long process. It's been quite there. It's one of the most challenging things he's gone through as a trainer.

Speaker 2: 1:28:51

But he slowly worked his way through figuring out how to communicate to this dog so it could chill out watching tv with him and his wife, it could play with a ball.

Speaker 2: 1:29:01

He shows a video.

Speaker 2: 1:29:02

This dog like licking the floor incessantly because that was just one of the ocd thing, like this dog would just, and he just took time to work through it and there wasn't any major compulsion, there wasn't only force free.

Speaker 2: 1:29:17

He had to find things that created structure for the dog and then, as the dog had time and I truly think, back to relationship aspect this dog finally got a relationship with somebody who knew how to communicate to a dog, not just the average pet owner, which unfortunately, a dog like this did need experience, and it worked, you know. And so all we're saying at the end of the day, after all of this stuff, is we all care about the dogs and we all, no matter what side you're on, care about the dogs. And we should look at our perspectives with the same respect that I know you care about the dog if you're on this side and I know you care about the dog if you're on this side, yeah, how we don't have to agree, but if we can at least be willing to listen to each other, we are still putting that first mission forward, which is the right thing for the dog, and being willing to look at it from different perspectives.

Speaker 1: 1:30:08

Yeah, I agree, I agree, and I think we cap it on that. I don't think there's a better message than that. You know, hey, man, I wish you the best. I love what you're doing. I love watching the different seminars and stuff that you got going on, and it's it's really, really cool to see you, you know, in that good spot like in the zone and and thriving. You got that perfect weather up there in Northern California, so God bless you for that. And you know, if there's ever anything I can do for you or anything, feel free to reach out and holler at me off leash canine. I know my team, we're big fans of um Ford canine and what you guys are doing.

Speaker 1: 1:30:46

Yes, thank you, um. You know, guys, if you want to learn more about um Cameron and his team and what they're doing upcoming seminars, tons and tons of online resources as well Logan dropped that website for us again, and then also social handles, and then we'll plug it in the show notes also for you. But if the show was helpful, found something you think somebody would learn something from it, feel free to share it, leave a review, comments, and we'll catch you next time on the Big Dog Podcast. Thanks, cameron, awesome, we'll see you next time.